They say it was just the top section with the title wording, no imagery missing right?
"The upper panel has been completely replaced but matches perfectly with the rest of the poster. Fortunately, this was only in the title area and didn't interfere with the graphics of Flynn and De Havilland."
When looking at their supersized image, it looks like the top panel stops just above the Photographed in bit. So assuming this is true, you still (apparently) have two thirds of an original poster to work with. And considering that two thirds looks identical to the US 3 sheet, fair bet the top part would be the same also right...
Comparing aussie to US, can someone explain why First National Pictures was left off the original aussie one sheet?
I think the top section would have been similar to the US three sheet certainly but who knows whether there might have been some wording on top section the Australian three sheet that was not on the US three sheet.
We also don't know exactly what restoration was done to the lower two panels although we do know who the consignor was and he might help with that.
Another thing that they say in the description is:
"The other wonderful thing about this image is the fact it was a stone litho compared to the US posters which were printed in offset lithography".
If it was a stone litho then it is far more likely to be original, although I have said that you cant always rely on the Heritage terminology.
I have to say that it would have been better to properly research this prior to making the claim. Some of the original points have been discounted and one major factor missed entirely.
John, don't despair, as nearly all of these issues can be answered by referencing Everyones / Film Weekly mags. The National Library has the full set running right through to the 1970s. Having them digitised would be of enormous benefit, and leave this forum with much less to talk about!
Someone (can't think who ) might befriend one of the library staff and start the ball rolling.
Mark, Everyone's / Film Weekly might not necessarily help because they didn't have photos of all posters. I have over a hundred Everyones /Film Weekly and I will have a look through them when I have time. It is possible that there might be a photo of a cinema with poster displays for Robin Hood. That would solve the problem!
I think the top section would have been similar to the US three sheet certainly but who knows whether there might have been some wording on top section the Australian three sheet that was not on the US three sheet.
I have asked the consignor just a few hours ago, unfortunately his images were lost when his computer died a couple of years ago, alas with no back-up.
That said, suffice it to say that John is right to say that unless another 3SH turns up then we will never know how accurate the top section is.
So Ves, what do you think about the poster? Do you think there is sufficient evidence to prove it is a re release?
Other than the fact it is an exact copy of the US 3 sheet (which they could have gotten and used for a RR here) what evidence is there that it is original again?
If Heritage had of stated this was an undated poster, possibly from the original release but not sure, would we still be arguing?
If anyone can explain away to me the printers logo, I concede it to be original. I've looked and cannot find anything to account for this. If I've learned nothing else in my time on VMPF it is that printers matter when dating anything Australian.
I really don't care either way, in that I mean I have no vested interest either way...it is a beautiful poster, original or re-release, and I suspect it kicks the US paper's butt!
AND I suspect the consignor would know for sure. You know it when you've held enough paper from the 30s compared to the 40s - late 40s at that, to tell the difference.
I have asked the consignor just a few hours ago, unfortunately his images were lost when his computer died a couple of years ago, alas with no back-up.
That said, suffice it to say that John is right to say that unless another 3SH turns up then we will never know how accurate the top section is.
That's a pity. That means we will also not know exactly how much restoration was done to the lower two panels. Yes, I know there is a description but they don't always tell you everything.
I can't say who the consignor is, it's not really my place to say so in public - he told me he was consigning the poster a couple of years back in a personal email.
I have asked the consignor just a few hours ago, unfortunately his images were lost when his computer died a couple of years ago, alas with no back-up.
That said, suffice it to say that John is right to say that unless another 3SH turns up then we will never know how accurate the top section is.
That's a pity. That means we will also not know exactly how much restoration was done to the lower two panels. Yes, I know there is a description but they don't always tell you everything.
Why not? Surely the consignor remembers what state it was in before it was sent off right?
Surely the consignor remembers what state it was in before it was sent off right?
Yes, but he doesn't specifically remember the condition in detail although the bottom did require some work, but if his memory serves correctly the logo was intact.
Surely the consignor remembers what state it was in before it was sent off right?
Yes, but he doesn't specifically remember the condition in detail although the bottom did require some work, but if his memory serves correctly the logo was intact.
I would like to see the restored poster, I believe I have examined more linen posters than anyone alive, and I would think I could quickly tell what was added to the bottom of the poster. I have seen many, many posters which were sold in other auctions as having minor restoration which were heavily restored.
I did not follow the auction, and I did not know it was from Heritage until it was stated here and I just now learned of the massive restoration. If the buyer felt it was worth paying that much for two-thirds of a poster, I doubt they would think it was a big deal if it turns out to be a re-release as well, although it still would be nice to know the exact truth on this poster.
We have had many experts poring over all the non-U.S. posters we have previously sold (not just Australian) and they have found many, many errors, and we have corrected them all and emailed the buyers. Yes, it has cost me a lot of money, but it has massively added to our knowledge of non-U.S. posters and how to accurately date the undated ones, and it has massively increased the accuracy of the database (which currently remains free for all, although it cost me many hundreds of thousands to develop, and at least $1,000 a month to host and maintain), and I feel that is a worthwhile trade-off.
One of the main reasons I go on forums is to learn new information about dating posters. Even if this one issue is never resolved, I have still learned much from this thread, and I thank the participants.
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HAS 25% or 26% "buyers premiums" of any kind (but especially the dreadful "$29 or $49 minimum" ones) - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS "reserves or starts over $1 - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS hidden bidder IDs - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS "nosebleed" shipping charges - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS inadequate packaging - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS no customer service to speak of, before, during and after any auction, and answers almost no questions - NOT eMoviePoster.com
Years ago, I had quite a few posters linen backed by Igor Edelman. I used to go to LA regularly for the Ray Courts collectors shows but my sense of direction is hopeless and I had a lot of trouble finding my way through the freeways there, particularly driving on the wrong side of the road.
On a couple of occasions, Igor's wife Lara, picked me up and drove me to his studio to collect posters Igor had backed for me. Igor was a very talented artist and he showed me a couple of linen backed posters that he had completely re created from original poster art. He wasn't selling them. He had just produced them for his own enjoyment but you could not tell the difference between the original poster and Igor's work.
Since then, there have been quite a few very high value posters where a large section of the poster has been re created. I prefer to have posters in my collection in their original condition. Minor restoration is fine but if a three sheet has one panel missing, and then has the third panel completely re created and linen backed, then it is not really an original movie poster in my opinion.
John I go two ways on this. As long as the buyer knows, isn't it there right to buy such a heavily restored poster? But I also feel that, investment-wise, such posters are the worst possible investment, because it would likely be hard to find a buyer at any price when they go to re-sell them.
On Igor, I had a long and wonderful relationship with him. I had the greatest project planned. He was going to create a series of 20 one-sheets for films that had lousy first release one-sheets (Casablanca, etc), and he would do something entirely new, the poster you wish they had made, in the style of that year, and then I was going to publish high quality limited edition of each, limited to 100 or so.
But then I moved from Los Angeles, and that ended the idea. I don't think there is another artist living who could have done what Igor would have done!
HAS lifetime guarantees on every item - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS unrestored and unenhanced images - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS 100% honest condition descriptions - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS auctions where the winner is the higher of two real bidders - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS up to SIXTEEN weeks of "Pay and Hold" to save a fortune on shipping - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS real customer service before, during and after EVERY auction, and answers all questions - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS 25% or 26% "buyers premiums" of any kind (but especially the dreadful "$29 or $49 minimum" ones) - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS "reserves or starts over $1 - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS hidden bidder IDs - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS "nosebleed" shipping charges - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS inadequate packaging - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS no customer service to speak of, before, during and after any auction, and answers almost no questions - NOT eMoviePoster.com
John I go two ways on this. As long as the buyer knows, isn't it there right to buy such a heavily restored poster? But I also feel that, investment-wise, such posters are the worst possible investment, because it would likely be hard to find a buyer at any price when they go to re-sell them.
On Igor, I had a long and wonderful relationship with him. I had the greatest project planned. He was going to create a series of 20 one-sheets for films that had lousy first release one-sheets (Casablanca, etc), and he would do something entirely new, the poster you wish they had made, in the style of that year, and then I was going to publish high quality limited edition of each, limited to 100 or so.
But then I moved from Los Angeles, and that ended the idea. I don't think there is another artist living who could have done what Igor would have done!
I do agree with you about those heavily restored posters being the worst possible investment.
That project would have been fascinating. There are so many disappointing posters for great films.
John I go two ways on this. As long as the buyer knows, isn't it there right to buy such a heavily restored poster? But I also feel that, investment-wise, such posters are the worst possible investment, because it would likely be hard to find a buyer at any price when they go to re-sell them.
On Igor, I had a long and wonderful relationship with him. I had the greatest project planned. He was going to create a series of 20 one-sheets for films that had lousy first release one-sheets (Casablanca, etc), and he would do something entirely new, the poster you wish they had made, in the style of that year, and then I was going to publish high quality limited edition of each, limited to 100 or so.
But then I moved from Los Angeles, and that ended the idea. I don't think there is another artist living who could have done what Igor would have done!
I do agree with you about those heavily restored posters being the worst possible investment.
You can almost guarantee there will always be someone wanting to buy.
Sometimes it'd be nice for the 'before' as well as the 'after' images to be available but that is not a criticism nor is it really possible, just a sigh.
John I go two ways on this. As long as the buyer knows, isn't it there right to buy such a heavily restored poster? But I also feel that, investment-wise, such posters are the worst possible investment, because it would likely be hard to find a buyer at any price when they go to re-sell them.
On Igor, I had a long and wonderful relationship with him. I had the greatest project planned. He was going to create a series of 20 one-sheets for films that had lousy first release one-sheets (Casablanca, etc), and he would do something entirely new, the poster you wish they had made, in the style of that year, and then I was going to publish high quality limited edition of each, limited to 100 or so.
But then I moved from Los Angeles, and that ended the idea. I don't think there is another artist living who could have done what Igor would have done!
I do agree with you about those heavily restored posters being the worst possible investment.
You can almost guarantee there will always be someone wanting to buy.
Sometimes it'd be nice for the 'before' as well as the 'after' images to be available but that is not a criticism nor is it really possible, just a sigh.
John I go two ways on this. As long as the buyer knows, isn't it there right to buy such a heavily restored poster? But I also feel that, investment-wise, such posters are the worst possible investment, because it would likely be hard to find a buyer at any price when they go to re-sell them.
On Igor, I had a long and wonderful relationship with him. I had the greatest project planned. He was going to create a series of 20 one-sheets for films that had lousy first release one-sheets (Casablanca, etc), and he would do something entirely new, the poster you wish they had made, in the style of that year, and then I was going to publish high quality limited edition of each, limited to 100 or so.
But then I moved from Los Angeles, and that ended the idea. I don't think there is another artist living who could have done what Igor would have done!
True david. Look at public enemy one sheet on HA . That was haeavily restored yet when it came around again it attracted buyers hence the price increase.
Any bets on whether it will sell for more or less the third time?
HAS lifetime guarantees on every item - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS unrestored and unenhanced images - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS 100% honest condition descriptions - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS auctions where the winner is the higher of two real bidders - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS up to SIXTEEN weeks of "Pay and Hold" to save a fortune on shipping - IS eMoviePoster.com HAS real customer service before, during and after EVERY auction, and answers all questions - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS 25% or 26% "buyers premiums" of any kind (but especially the dreadful "$29 or $49 minimum" ones) - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS "reserves or starts over $1 - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS hidden bidder IDs - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS "nosebleed" shipping charges - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS inadequate packaging - NOT eMoviePoster.com HAS no customer service to speak of, before, during and after any auction, and answers almost no questions - NOT eMoviePoster.com
One can never know what way any auction event will go, restored, original or otherwise. i am sure you have had amazingly good results and bad results on posters in the past Bruce (no examples needed).
Like selling a house at auction - it's sometimes just about who turns up on the day.
Some help from Ves please? It is impossible to read the printers name. I am positive I know the answer and I can make out the style of the Warner Bros. logo but I need to confirm this information for both so to be 100% accurate as I slowly potter away in my quest to gather information to support my under fire beliefs on the 3 sheet poster release dates.
A press book for either the 1938 release or 1949 release might be the best way to provide the evidence needed. Have you checked with NFSA to see if they have anything?
Comments
They say it was just the top section with the title wording, no imagery missing right?
"The upper panel has been completely replaced but matches perfectly with the rest of the poster. Fortunately, this was only in the title area and didn't interfere with the graphics of Flynn and De Havilland."
When looking at their supersized image, it looks like the top panel stops just above the Photographed in bit. So assuming this is true, you still (apparently) have two thirds of an original poster to work with. And considering that two thirds looks identical to the US 3 sheet, fair bet the top part would be the same also right...
Comparing aussie to US, can someone explain why First National Pictures was left off the original aussie one sheet?
We also don't know exactly what restoration was done to the lower two panels although we do know who the consignor was and he might help with that.
Another thing that they say in the description is:
"The other wonderful thing about this image is the fact it was a stone litho compared to the US posters which were printed in offset lithography".
If it was a stone litho then it is far more likely to be original, although I have said that you cant always rely on the Heritage terminology.
Do we? Fark! Who? Let's ask then. I am sure they would have their own images etc...
Yes, agree with you on this front for sure...
That said, suffice it to say that John is right to say that unless another 3SH turns up then we will never know how accurate the top section is.
Other than the fact it is an exact copy of the US 3 sheet (which they could have gotten and used for a RR here) what evidence is there that it is original again?
If Heritage had of stated this was an undated poster, possibly from the original release but not sure, would we still be arguing?
If anyone can explain away to me the printers logo, I concede it to be original. I've looked and cannot find anything to account for this. If I've learned nothing else in my time on VMPF it is that printers matter when dating anything Australian.
I really don't care either way, in that I mean I have no vested interest either way...it is a beautiful poster, original or re-release, and I suspect it kicks the US paper's butt!
AND I suspect the consignor would know for sure. You know it when you've held enough paper from the 30s compared to the 40s - late 40s at that, to tell the difference.
That's a pity. That means we will also not know exactly how much restoration was done to the lower two panels. Yes, I know there is a description but they don't always tell you everything.
So then we are assuming he thought is was from '39?
Why not? Surely the consignor remembers what state it was in before it was sent off right?
Did you see it?
Yes, but he doesn't specifically remember the condition in detail although the bottom did require some work, but if his memory serves correctly the logo was intact.
I did not follow the auction, and I did not know it was from Heritage until it was stated here and I just now learned of the massive restoration. If the buyer felt it was worth paying that much for two-thirds of a poster, I doubt they would think it was a big deal if it turns out to be a re-release as well, although it still would be nice to know the exact truth on this poster.
We have had many experts poring over all the non-U.S. posters we have previously sold (not just Australian) and they have found many, many errors, and we have corrected them all and emailed the buyers. Yes, it has cost me a lot of money, but it has massively added to our knowledge of non-U.S. posters and how to accurately date the undated ones, and it has massively increased the accuracy of the database (which currently remains free for all, although it cost me many hundreds of thousands to develop, and at least $1,000 a month to host and maintain), and I feel that is a worthwhile trade-off.
One of the main reasons I go on forums is to learn new information about dating posters. Even if this one issue is never resolved, I have still learned much from this thread, and I thank the participants.
HAS unrestored and unenhanced images - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS 100% honest condition descriptions - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS auctions where the winner is the higher of two real bidders - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS up to SIXTEEN weeks of "Pay and Hold" to save a fortune on shipping - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS real customer service before, during and after EVERY auction, and answers all questions - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS 25% or 26% "buyers premiums" of any kind (but especially the dreadful "$29 or $49 minimum" ones) - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS "reserves or starts over $1 - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS hidden bidder IDs - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS "nosebleed" shipping charges - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS inadequate packaging - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS no customer service to speak of, before, during and after any auction, and answers almost no questions - NOT eMoviePoster.com
On a couple of occasions, Igor's wife Lara, picked me up and drove me to his studio to collect posters Igor had backed for me. Igor was a very talented artist and he showed me a couple of linen backed posters that he had completely re created from original poster art. He wasn't selling them. He had just produced them for his own enjoyment but you could not tell the difference between the original poster and Igor's work.
Since then, there have been quite a few very high value posters where a large section of the poster has been re created. I prefer to have posters in my collection in their original condition. Minor restoration is fine but if a three sheet has one panel missing, and then has the third panel completely re created and linen backed, then it is not really an original movie poster in my opinion.
On Igor, I had a long and wonderful relationship with him. I had the greatest project planned. He was going to create a series of 20 one-sheets for films that had lousy first release one-sheets (Casablanca, etc), and he would do something entirely new, the poster you wish they had made, in the style of that year, and then I was going to publish high quality limited edition of each, limited to 100 or so.
But then I moved from Los Angeles, and that ended the idea. I don't think there is another artist living who could have done what Igor would have done!
HAS unrestored and unenhanced images - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS 100% honest condition descriptions - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS auctions where the winner is the higher of two real bidders - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS up to SIXTEEN weeks of "Pay and Hold" to save a fortune on shipping - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS real customer service before, during and after EVERY auction, and answers all questions - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS 25% or 26% "buyers premiums" of any kind (but especially the dreadful "$29 or $49 minimum" ones) - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS "reserves or starts over $1 - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS hidden bidder IDs - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS "nosebleed" shipping charges - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS inadequate packaging - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS no customer service to speak of, before, during and after any auction, and answers almost no questions - NOT eMoviePoster.com
That project would have been fascinating. There are so many disappointing posters for great films.
Sometimes it'd be nice for the 'before' as well as the 'after' images to be available but that is not a criticism nor is it really possible, just a sigh.
Any bets on whether it will sell for more or less the third time?
HAS unrestored and unenhanced images - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS 100% honest condition descriptions - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS auctions where the winner is the higher of two real bidders - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS up to SIXTEEN weeks of "Pay and Hold" to save a fortune on shipping - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS real customer service before, during and after EVERY auction, and answers all questions - IS eMoviePoster.com
HAS 25% or 26% "buyers premiums" of any kind (but especially the dreadful "$29 or $49 minimum" ones) - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS "reserves or starts over $1 - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS hidden bidder IDs - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS "nosebleed" shipping charges - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS inadequate packaging - NOT eMoviePoster.com
HAS no customer service to speak of, before, during and after any auction, and answers almost no questions - NOT eMoviePoster.com
Like selling a house at auction - it's sometimes just about who turns up on the day.
No worries...will be putting the little monkey down in a bit and will scan that part of the poster in. More soon.