Well there are two types: paper infill and paste. There are lots of good videos out there at least showing paper infills. I had cooked up a methylcellulose and cellulose type spackle… Then I’ve seen some restorers just using spackle… but no real insider tips. Always work on infills after the poster has dried. If still wet can be tricky. Although, I’ve seen European restorers add paper to back of posters while still wet in the mylars. Just make sure the area you are working on is damp or a dry poster will suck out the moisture from any adhesive.
I was happy with this restoration, all the white spaces were heavily stained, it took a lot of baby sitting during bleaching but the results are great.
This poster that I was lucky to be able to restore, was graded as very fine + on Heritage, the highest grade for a restored poster, and sold for $440.00.
Well after a few years here in Paris I kept it up here and there w poster restoration. Turns out theirs a number of universities here for paper restoration (5 years...). Most districts in the city have a few people who restore and a few shops that sell posters (mostly travel / advertising). Basically, this is the Yankees of the hobby / industry...
That said, they're as cagey and guarded as ever. I did find a lovely gal who has helped me in the restoration aspect and is kinda guiding me (she mainly does books and really old lithographs and paintings for a few auction houses -- posters aren't her thing).
At anyrate... I decided to dive back in a few months ago and screwed up.
How? I decided to do my Italian 2p's and French Grandes... Which means?
I made a big canvas today... (150 x 215)
(cheers to Charlie for saying that canvas stretchers are pieces O' crap and just grab some hide gloves and get to work -- you would have been proud -- then I realized my gloves were dirty so I used my barehands and now my knuckles look like I was in a fight...)
...but I fight I won as she passed the drum test. Paste is made and in the fridge. Tomorrow paper. Weds wet work. Weds or Thurs mount (i forget if I need to let her dry first then wet and mount or just mount when the wet work is done... regardless it will be a hellova learning curve -- lotta fold lines in a 2p and if I recollect I should massage those out before I mount and let the canvas finish them off... no matter. Questions and answers. Chutes and Ladders. Charlie & Eisenhower, I'm back.
PS: every restorer I've met here knows of Dario. The dude is like Luke Skywalker. No one has seen him in years -- but everyone 'senses' his power.
PSS: I'm certain this will be an absolute disaster... but it will be a documented disaster.
Mainly because I don't have a table (or completely solid flat surface to support a 150 x 215cm frame... and stretching canvas is easier than (on my own) mounting something that's so big).
Here's the breakdown on what I did and where I am...
Mistake Number 1 -- too much water in the wheat paste... It was too runny. Rather than 'Runny Honey' it was more like 'creamy soup'... That said this wheat starch here is really good.
Mistake Number 2 -- Going for this when I don't have a work table big enough to smooth things out when mounting. No brayer I believe would help -- but I'm certain I could do this on my own if I had a table. That said I still tried and this is how far I got...
I laid down mylar sheets after cleaning the shit out of the floor first... Then I wet the paper with a spray bottle. The paper is 120gsm Fabriano, ph n archival. A little on the thick side but it's worked great for 1 sheets thus far...
So after a few tries of trying to mount (I myself am about 198cm tall).... it was just too hard to raise and guess... It wasn't lining up right, etc... So had to remount at least 3x before trying to smooth it on / roll it on properly -- which was very hard standing rather than it laying flat.
After some effort I managed to get it done. After some more effort I got most the air pockets out (by rewetting and peeling back the paper then smoothing it out, corner by corner). This was tough bc again, the paper is huuuuuuuuge. For a moment I thought only one crease was there which I was sure I could smooth out with a burnisher... Then I saw these...
I worked for ages to smooth them out by hand and with a squeegee, but they wouldn't go without a flat surface behind. Tried to jury rig one with mylar on the floor and laying the whole canvas down but these are old ass parquet floors... Level and even are not in their french volcabulary.
I did my damndest and set it aside and be a lil' patient. These are all the bubbles that remained.
Pity. I nearly left them there and figured I'd just use the middle / upper half of the mount and do a 1 sheet and an insert or daybill... but you don't get better by playing it safe...
After reading a bit more on the conservation wiki and another gov site I found that's all about paper preservation and one french site -- I decide to soak the canvas and carefully peel back the paper -- and will try again later with a fresh sheet tomorrow.
At worst I'll muck it up again. At best I'll have done it.
That said I'm getting something for a surface tomorrow...
Yeah I've backed a number of one sheets with it. It rolls well -- but after this I'll go down to something closer to the standard 70-80 gsm. Be it the Masa or another archival paper made for backing / buffering.
The paper was rather heavy and did in fact tear just a hair at one point.
I still think the main issue(s) were:
the paste was too dilluted (which allowed for pockets to form too easily on the canvas once the paper was rolled down).
no flat surface. I have never used a brayer before (never needed too), but in this case I believe one (along with a flat surface) was paramount.
That said, we often mainly post our successes here and I figured to post some failures too. They'll be more of both.
PS: Charlie you would be shocked to know how many restorers here in France, where they're many and 5 year universities for the trade... don't adhere to the strict standards you championed. It's actually kinda disappointing once you pull back the curtain.
Not sure if it's laziness or just a demand to keep the clients happy with quick turnaround...
Update... After getting a brayer, buying a clear PVC floor mat (think those ones they use for offices)... I decided to take another go...
After asking a paper restorer that lives down the street from me, she suggested that my paste wasn't thick enough. She said for heavier / bigger pieces she typically goes 1 cup starch to 2 cup water... That said she also just uses Parisian tap water...
Anyway theirs no learning like experience...
150 x 215 redux... (note... another mistake was I made the frame a little too small on the edges... I should have just had it be overall bigger than my paper so I didn't have to cut it 2x... a problem I have likely due to the 120gsm weight)...
I prepped the floor mat and canvas and readied to lay it down...
After wetting the paper and using the wheat paste (barely made enough... only used 1 1/2 cup and really needed 2... at least...
After laying it down and brayering like hell and back... It looked pretty damn good. Then after a few minutes I leaned it up.. and noticed one issue...
A crease in the middle that's about as long as my hand and then blow it a slight spot with some either air bubbles or excess paste or both... I'll try to brayer it out but I'm not sure if I should lift and remount (its really in the centre and I can imagine this would wind up making it worse as I had to attempt the mount about 3 times already... Anyway... I'll get to brayering and hopefully that will fix the pockets and then maybe burnishing will work on those slight folds?
Maybe just throw in the towel on this go or attempt to salvage once more?
I’ll offer a tip. I used a car tint applicator… basically a wide spackle/mud knife - no handle. I also not only put wheat paste into the canvas but back buttered the masa… that provided some extra slip. Next is to make the first application of the masa while frame is standing so you can control as much as you can. Let gravity control the bottom and lightly push down from top with the applicator so that it sticks but you can still lift. Then lay down push out in redial fashion but again not too hard to set the paper. If there are bubbles, lift the corners and push out with tint applicator in radial directions to each corner until smooth… then I would bray with roller - again away from center in radial progression and then more aggressively back and forth. Just a thought or two - I’m sure you are on top of most of that…
OK. So I wet it. Lifted. Remounted. And by some miracle (and again, a shitload of braying) it worked. I DO have some creases which I can't for the lift of me get out, but I imagine I can burnish them (or try too).
Now I have an issue that after the paper has mostly dried, the frame itself is warping. I've had this happen with 1 sheet frames before but never as pronounced as this (due to its size). Wonder if it's a 'too weak wood' thing or even if it's a real problem?
Also they're some slight ripples in the canvas that were *not* there when stretched it and let it sit for a few days -- maybe as large as my palm in an area or two -- but they happened during the night when the masa dried and canvas warped.
I may just chalk this up as a learning experience and reflect a touch.
I’ll offer a tip. I used a car tint applicator… basically a wide spackle/mud knife - no handle. I also not only put wheat paste into the canvas but back buttered the masa… that provided some extra slip. Next is to make the first application of the masa while frame is standing so you can control as much as you can. Let gravity control the bottom and lightly push down from top with the applicator so that it sticks but you can still lift. Then lay down push out in redial fashion but again not too hard to set the paper. If there are bubbles, lift the corners and push out with tint applicator in radial directions to each corner until smooth… then I would bray with roller - again away from center in radial progression and then more aggressively back and forth. Just a thought or two - I’m sure you are on top of most of that…
The Car Tint Applicator is a great idea. I'll order one today. I use/d a squeegee I got from IKEA but it wasn't heavy enough.
Laying from the top down while the frame is standing -- I do this for my one sheets / B2's, but this is so damned big, it's not possible to lay it down like you describe and have a hand free to use the applicator -- that's a two person job with paper this big -- THAT SAID...
Looking at this old post -- basically Poster Mountain used two seperate sheets of Masa for a 6 sheet, overlapping them in the middle. I was tempted to do so with this as it would make life WAY easier...
Then I recalled a few images I've seen from a few other shops -- where they'll use a frame for a 2 fogli or 3 sheet and instead use it for 2 x 1 sheets... So laying paper this large IS possible and is an (un)common practice... I just again wonder if they use 2 sheets or 1 massive one...
Also laying 2 sheets with an overlap on canvas -- wouldn't you tempted to sand the edges a bit to get less of a 'lump' where they overlap?
1- Duke: Wow you're really good. Were those Argentine posters tough? Don't know them but I have some older ones from Mexico and the paper is veeeeeery fragile.
2. So I put away the big frame for French Grande's and Italian 2ps... And went back to 1 sheets!
Today I decided to wash and back an older poster for In Cold Blood (mainly bc the lady I'm shadowing for restoration work said it was good to practice on finding the right blacks that won't show easily...)
Here are some photos from the steps we all follow (using the Mylar sandwich method).... Also I finally found a place to get some Masa paper cheap in Europe... Had to go to Germany and saved about 80 euros.
ON WITH THE WETWORK... (poster was slightly yellowed with two light tears. NOTE THE FULL BLACK... This leads to a question below...
Here's it post deacid wash no 1 and post light bleach and acetic acid...
Noticed some light air bubbles within the paper that smoothed out when sandwiched and squeegeed...
Had one "OMFG!" panic moment when after the final wash, was moving the poster between polyester sheets to be laid down to dry before mounting... when the god damn poster slipped between the sheets... and fell back on the floor space in a crumpled mess. After much patience and careful unfurling and lifting and laying out -- I salvaged it but with two new (slight and small) tears... Once it was back on a fresh piece of slightly wetted polyester sheet, I managed to lift it onto the drying table... Sometimes I wish I had a bath as I assume it's just much more controllable and the overall less moving and flipping of wet paper, the fewer chances of a mishap like this to happen...
Anyway here's the poster post mounting...
The question is... WAY more 'scratches' are now visible than before the wash... Now I can (hopefully) fix all these... but is this normal that *more* imperfections will become visible than were previously seen? What causes this?
Also Question 2 -- for the 'mylar sandwich' method... Per 1 sheet... how many chemicals does one use for the wetwork steps? I ask because I made a Bleach Solution of 1L... Made Cal Hydroxide for 2L... Yet after all this... I have about .6L of Bleach left... and 1.3L of Cal Hydrox left... If I would use a bath, I would ofc dump them all in the bath on their respective steps... but the Mylar sandwich (or in my case, polyester), is just spray spray spray spray, etc... When I've seen others do it (not P-fix...) they tend to gradually and gently spray a mist from one end to the other... then flip and repeat...
Well doing that, I find I hardly use any chemicals at all... Which further makes me think maybe I should make my mixes stronger -- but that's asking for trouble perhaps...
Anyway... How much in terms of volume of each chemical do you all use for the mylar method per 1 sheet if anyone cares to share...
Haven't entered this thread in a while. Besides the proper congratulations for your restoring enterprise, I must say I'm glad to see those argentinean one sheets being worked on. Got the "El extraño caso...". Awesome poster
Yes to a previous thread about Argentine paper, it was very thin and toned. Once washed, and bleaching the paper stayed flat. They also had more fold lines than a US 1 sheets.
Just finished these two. Quite proud of how Hollywood Boulevard came out.
BEFORE
Using water colour pencils and got to work... Wasn't so bad until I hit the skin tones...
My (lack of) skills was really starting to show...
I undid a lot with water and a tiny sponge... Then Sarah stepped in with water color and a brush using the Seurat method and then told me to try again...
This is the result (still pretty rough I think but she really helped me nail the skin tones on the forehead and chest)
The full monty
Next up was In Cold Blood -- which was rough bc of the wall of black that got really streaky during the wash (still unsure how that happened... Either when I dropped it or during the bleach or 2nd Cal Hydrox...
How it started:
Using water color black paint, a teeny tiny brush, a million little dots and a lot of patience... it went like this...
I had to clean and be really careful with a lot of the black space... plus I had this overhead light in the studio that made everything initially look like absolute crap... But after a few hours the paint dried and my technique (thanks to Sarah) got a lot better.. And you could see less and less of the actual 'camouflage'...
They're both not perfect -- but I feel good about the effort and result considering my absolutely n00bness in this whole affair. Black is really tricky. I guess this is when most the professionals use airbrush and just layer it on?
Later this week I'll put up some Yugoslavian posters and another US one sheet (1979 so I'm fearing that clay...).
Comments
thanks
probably confused you more than helped.
They are for a local collector friend of mine that has helped me along.
Well after a few years here in Paris I kept it up here and there w poster restoration. Turns out theirs a number of universities here for paper restoration (5 years...). Most districts in the city have a few people who restore and a few shops that sell posters (mostly travel / advertising). Basically, this is the Yankees of the hobby / industry...
That said, they're as cagey and guarded as ever. I did find a lovely gal who has helped me in the restoration aspect and is kinda guiding me (she mainly does books and really old lithographs and paintings for a few auction houses -- posters aren't her thing).
At anyrate... I decided to dive back in a few months ago and screwed up.
How? I decided to do my Italian 2p's and French Grandes... Which means?
I made a big canvas today... (150 x 215)
(cheers to Charlie for saying that canvas stretchers are pieces O' crap and just grab some hide gloves and get to work -- you would have been proud -- then I realized my gloves were dirty so I used my barehands and now my knuckles look like I was in a fight...)
...but I fight I won as she passed the drum test. Paste is made and in the fridge. Tomorrow paper. Weds wet work. Weds or Thurs mount (i forget if I need to let her dry first then wet and mount or just mount when the wet work is done... regardless it will be a hellova learning curve -- lotta fold lines in a 2p and if I recollect I should massage those out before I mount and let the canvas finish them off... no matter. Questions and answers. Chutes and Ladders. Charlie & Eisenhower, I'm back.
PS: every restorer I've met here knows of Dario. The dude is like Luke Skywalker. No one has seen him in years -- but everyone 'senses' his power.
PSS: I'm certain this will be an absolute disaster... but it will be a documented disaster.
Mainly because I don't have a table (or completely solid flat surface to support a 150 x 215cm frame... and stretching canvas is easier than (on my own) mounting something that's so big).
Here's the breakdown on what I did and where I am...
Mistake Number 1 -- too much water in the wheat paste... It was too runny. Rather than 'Runny Honey' it was more like 'creamy soup'... That said this wheat starch here is really good.
Mistake Number 2 -- Going for this when I don't have a work table big enough to smooth things out when mounting. No brayer I believe would help -- but I'm certain I could do this on my own if I had a table. That said I still tried and this is how far I got...
I laid down mylar sheets after cleaning the shit out of the floor first... Then I wet the paper with a spray bottle. The paper is 120gsm Fabriano, ph n archival. A little on the thick side but it's worked great for 1 sheets thus far...
So after a few tries of trying to mount (I myself am about 198cm tall).... it was just too hard to raise and guess... It wasn't lining up right, etc... So had to remount at least 3x before trying to smooth it on / roll it on properly -- which was very hard standing rather than it laying flat.
After some effort I managed to get it done. After some more effort I got most the air pockets out (by rewetting and peeling back the paper then smoothing it out, corner by corner). This was tough bc again, the paper is huuuuuuuuge. For a moment I thought only one crease was there which I was sure I could smooth out with a burnisher...
Then I saw these...
I worked for ages to smooth them out by hand and with a squeegee, but they wouldn't go without a flat surface behind. Tried to jury rig one with mylar on the floor and laying the whole canvas down but these are old ass parquet floors... Level and even are not in their french volcabulary.
I did my damndest and set it aside and be a lil' patient. These are all the bubbles that remained.
Pity. I nearly left them there and figured I'd just use the middle / upper half of the mount and do a 1 sheet and an insert or daybill... but you don't get better by playing it safe...
After reading a bit more on the conservation wiki and another gov site I found that's all about paper preservation and one french site -- I decide to soak the canvas and carefully peel back the paper -- and will try again later with a fresh sheet tomorrow.
At worst I'll muck it up again. At best I'll have done it.
That said I'm getting something for a surface tomorrow...
The paper was rather heavy and did in fact tear just a hair at one point.
I still think the main issue(s) were:
the paste was too dilluted (which allowed for pockets to form too easily on the canvas once the paper was rolled down).
no flat surface. I have never used a brayer before (never needed too), but in this case I believe one (along with a flat surface) was paramount.
That said, we often mainly post our successes here and I figured to post some failures too. They'll be more of both.
PS: Charlie you would be shocked to know how many restorers here in France, where they're many and 5 year universities for the trade... don't adhere to the strict standards you championed. It's actually kinda disappointing once you pull back the curtain.
Not sure if it's laziness or just a demand to keep the clients happy with quick turnaround...
After asking a paper restorer that lives down the street from me, she suggested that my paste wasn't thick enough. She said for heavier / bigger pieces she typically goes 1 cup starch to 2 cup water... That said she also just uses Parisian tap water...
Anyway theirs no learning like experience...
150 x 215 redux...
(note... another mistake was I made the frame a little too small on the edges... I should have just had it be overall bigger than my paper so I didn't have to cut it 2x... a problem I have likely due to the 120gsm weight)...
I prepped the floor mat and canvas and readied to lay it down...
After wetting the paper and using the wheat paste (barely made enough... only used 1 1/2 cup and really needed 2... at least...
After laying it down and brayering like hell and back... It looked pretty damn good. Then after a few minutes I leaned it up.. and noticed one issue...
A crease in the middle that's about as long as my hand and then blow it a slight spot with some either air bubbles or excess paste or both... I'll try to brayer it out but I'm not sure if I should lift and remount (its really in the centre and I can imagine this would wind up making it worse as I had to attempt the mount about 3 times already... Anyway... I'll get to brayering and hopefully that will fix the pockets and then maybe burnishing will work on those slight folds?
Maybe just throw in the towel on this go or attempt to salvage once more?
Chutes and ladders.
Now I have an issue that after the paper has mostly dried, the frame itself is warping. I've had this happen with 1 sheet frames before but never as pronounced as this (due to its size). Wonder if it's a 'too weak wood' thing or even if it's a real problem?
Also they're some slight ripples in the canvas that were *not* there when stretched it and let it sit for a few days -- maybe as large as my palm in an area or two -- but they happened during the night when the masa dried and canvas warped.
I may just chalk this up as a learning experience and reflect a touch.
Speaking of reflections...
The Car Tint Applicator is a great idea. I'll order one today. I use/d a squeegee I got from IKEA but it wasn't heavy enough.
Laying from the top down while the frame is standing -- I do this for my one sheets / B2's, but this is so damned big, it's not possible to lay it down like you describe and have a hand free to use the applicator -- that's a two person job with paper this big -- THAT SAID...
Looking at this old post -- basically Poster Mountain used two seperate sheets of Masa for a 6 sheet, overlapping them in the middle. I was tempted to do so with this as it would make life WAY easier...
Then I recalled a few images I've seen from a few other shops -- where they'll use a frame for a 2 fogli or 3 sheet and instead use it for 2 x 1 sheets... So laying paper this large IS possible and is an (un)common practice... I just again wonder if they use 2 sheets or 1 massive one...
Also laying 2 sheets with an overlap on canvas -- wouldn't you tempted to sand the edges a bit to get less of a 'lump' where they overlap?
2. So I put away the big frame for French Grande's and Italian 2ps... And went back to 1 sheets!
Today I decided to wash and back an older poster for In Cold Blood (mainly bc the lady I'm shadowing for restoration work said it was good to practice on finding the right blacks that won't show easily...)
Here are some photos from the steps we all follow (using the Mylar sandwich method).... Also I finally found a place to get some Masa paper cheap in Europe... Had to go to Germany and saved about 80 euros.
ON WITH THE WETWORK...
(poster was slightly yellowed with two light tears. NOTE THE FULL BLACK... This leads to a question below...
Here's it post deacid wash no 1 and post light bleach and acetic acid...
Noticed some light air bubbles within the paper that smoothed out when sandwiched and squeegeed...
Had one "OMFG!" panic moment when after the final wash, was moving the poster between polyester sheets to be laid down to dry before mounting... when the god damn poster slipped between the sheets... and fell back on the floor space in a crumpled mess. After much patience and careful unfurling and lifting and laying out -- I salvaged it but with two new (slight and small) tears... Once it was back on a fresh piece of slightly wetted polyester sheet, I managed to lift it onto the drying table... Sometimes I wish I had a bath as I assume it's just much more controllable and the overall less moving and flipping of wet paper, the fewer chances of a mishap like this to happen...
Anyway here's the poster post mounting...
The question is... WAY more 'scratches' are now visible than before the wash... Now I can (hopefully) fix all these... but is this normal that *more* imperfections will become visible than were previously seen? What causes this?
Also Question 2 -- for the 'mylar sandwich' method... Per 1 sheet... how many chemicals does one use for the wetwork steps? I ask because I made a Bleach Solution of 1L... Made Cal Hydroxide for 2L... Yet after all this... I have about .6L of Bleach left... and 1.3L of Cal Hydrox left... If I would use a bath, I would ofc dump them all in the bath on their respective steps... but the Mylar sandwich (or in my case, polyester), is just spray spray spray spray, etc... When I've seen others do it (not P-fix...) they tend to gradually and gently spray a mist from one end to the other... then flip and repeat...
Well doing that, I find I hardly use any chemicals at all... Which further makes me think maybe I should make my mixes stronger -- but that's asking for trouble perhaps...
Anyway... How much in terms of volume of each chemical do you all use for the mylar method per 1 sheet if anyone cares to share...
Just finished these two. Quite proud of how Hollywood Boulevard came out.
BEFORE
Using water colour pencils and got to work... Wasn't so bad until I hit the skin tones...
My (lack of) skills was really starting to show...
I undid a lot with water and a tiny sponge... Then Sarah stepped in with water color and a brush using the Seurat method and then told me to try again...
This is the result (still pretty rough I think but she really helped me nail the skin tones on the forehead and chest)
The full monty
Next up was In Cold Blood -- which was rough bc of the wall of black that got really streaky during the wash (still unsure how that happened... Either when I dropped it or during the bleach or 2nd Cal Hydrox...
How it started:
Using water color black paint, a teeny tiny brush, a million little dots and a lot of patience... it went like this...
I had to clean and be really careful with a lot of the black space... plus I had this overhead light in the studio that made everything initially look like absolute crap... But after a few hours the paint dried and my technique (thanks to Sarah) got a lot better.. And you could see less and less of the actual 'camouflage'...
They're both not perfect -- but I feel good about the effort and result considering my absolutely n00bness in this whole affair. Black is really tricky. I guess this is when most the professionals use airbrush and just layer it on?
Later this week I'll put up some Yugoslavian posters and another US one sheet (1979 so I'm fearing that clay...).